Rental Investor Starter Kit

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Show Description

Do you know what’s the difference between a house built for rent and one built for sale? The build for rent market has become very appealing to investors! Build-to-rent properties reduce your maintenance costs, ensure steady monthly rental income over the long term and make an excellent additional addition to your real estate portfolio.

Today on the show we have Mark Peterson from SVN | SFRhub Advisors who will tell us all about build for rent houses and how the whole thing works. Mark and his company advise builders, developers, investors, and sellers to help them breakthrough into this new market. In this episode, he will share some of that knowledge with us and introduce us to this great new opportunity!

What We Cover

00:06 - Introduction to the subject of build for rent and Mark’s background in real estate.
06:40 - What types of investors can work with SVN | SFRhub Advisors and what are the best models for investing in build for rent.
12:33 - The benefits of build for rent vs. SFR, why is build for rent perfect for economies of scales, and how to establish a syndication model.
19:45 - The impact of the pandemic and subsequent changes on real estate development and future trends in building houses.
24:37 - The benefits of build for rent vs. fix and rent, and why build for rent can be a better choice for long-term investors.
30:18 - What exciting new markets (aside from big metro areas) are up and coming for large-scale investors who want to hold properties in the long-term.
36:42 - How to get in touch with Mark and SVN | SFRhub Advisors and what kind of services they can offer investors, developers, and sellers.

Watch the Podcast

Read the Transcript

Steve Rozenberg  05:51
Alright, I believe we are finally live on Facebook so we can, we can get this party started. Ladies and gentlemen welcome to another episode of the Myndful Investor Podcast show. I am Steve Rozenberg, I'm the host. And I'm the head of investor education for Mynd Property Management, Mynd manages properties in about 19 investable markets nationwide. So if you're looking to own properties, investment properties, or have conversations with someone. It's all about partnerships and relationships. And as you will learn if you haven't learned already, when you own a rental property, you own a business. And that business is tied to multiple facets of people that are working together as a team, property management, finding deals, all of that collectively has come together, hopefully, to getting you to whatever goal it is you want to have. And if you don't know what your goal is, then that map should be another conversation that you need to figure out what your goal is. But Mynd is basically the backbone to help you get there on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. And what I've learned on my own personal journey of owning real estate is that you know, it comes in many shapes and sizes and people that do different things in terms of acronyms and everything you hear about along the way. It's just this wild ride sometimes of owning real estate. And you start to learn about the specialties that people do. And what I like to do is I like to talk to people like our guests today, that they have a special focus and what they do and what I have learned. And I'd be curious, when I talk to my guests, I've learned that the people that are hyper-focused on a specific task, target idea, product, potion lotion, whatever it is, those are the ones that are successful, as opposed to the ones and people that we see in real estate that do everything. And they normally don't do everything very well. So what I've learned is, if you can attract yourself around the people that are focused and hyper-focused, and experts in their field, you're going to be a lot better off than trying to deal with people that try to do everything. And I think a lot of us in real estate, we think we can do everything. And we think we should learn how to do everything. But that's not the reality. The reality is you do what you do best. And you either partner with or bring on other people and what they do best. So my guest today, the name is Mark Peterson, and he is with SVN | SFRhub Advisors. And they did something interesting, that is called build for rent. So I could butcher this and try to explain on my own, but I figured it's better since I've got the expert here. Why don't I just bring him on and let him explain what it is. So Mark, thanks so much for being here today. I appreciate it.

Mark Peterson  08:39
Thanks for having me.

Steve Rozenberg  08:42
You know what I'm gonna ask, give me your background a little bit first, kind of like, how did you? Where did you come from and to where you are now and how did this idea evolve?

Mark Peterson  08:53
Sure. So my path into real estate, I think kind of like your Steve was, was, let's say nonlinear or somewhat circuitous, if you like that word better. I started off as an attorney, my last job as an attorney was in the house for a shellfish company in coastal Maine. And so now you're thinking, all right, how do you possibly get from shellfish in house attorney and lobbying into real estate? A lot of what we did was aquaculture. So we had to lease ocean bottom space from the state. But in order to that, we needed federal, state, and local permits and permissions. So it's not really different than in titling a piece of land, just different agencies and much more convoluted and, you know, not as well known. And so at one point in time, I decided because I have family out in here, I'm in Arizona, I have family out here, had friends in real estate, been circling around it for a long time. Decided All right, people don't get as mad at you. entitling lands, especially in Greater Phoenix, as they were getting at me for entitling aquaculture sites. So I often moved out here got into residential development land brokerage, so focused on selling, you know, 50 hundred 200 acre plus parcels, to developers or builders lots either entitled or an entitled finish to two builders for that. And so that was running great. Until, let's say the end of oh six, and then the end of oh six came, and then oh seven and a Wade. And we all know what a boondoggle that was, and land in Phoenix went down 90% kind of thing. If you had bought finished lots, then you would have been being paid to take half of the entitlements, half of the improvements, and all of the land, basically, for what you're paying for it. So that moved in. And then a couple of friends of mine, Michael Finch and Jeff Klein had become involved in rental home portfolio sales. And we had, we were in touch on others, you know, other activities that we were working on, while they were doing this. So about two and a half years ago, plus or minus, I came over to SFR, hub advisors, were the only commercial asset class we deal with our portfolios of rental homes. Okay, so, you know, we're while we're in office, we don't deal with offices, we don't deal with hotels or you know, multifamily, anything like that. I run the build from the run side, I have a counterpart who runs the SFR, the existing asset side. And I think a lot of that goes into what you were saying, Steve, about, you know, specialize to really know an area, whether it's built for an existing asset, multifamily, or, you know, where I definitely don't play property management, where you guys play is find the expert, talk to them as many of them as you can, and then go, we loosely defined in house and I know people have different definitions for build for rent versus SFR. For us, a build for rent house is a house that's never been occupied. So it may or may not have been built yet. Whereas an SFR single-family rental house is a house that's been occupied by someone.

Steve Rozenberg  12:40
So the definition of build for rent is you're basically building is it houses or even subdivisions? Or are they are these for a conglomerate like large organizations? Who are they for? If someone like me says, Hey, I want to buy two? Do you work with someone like me? Or do you only work with large associations?

Mark Peterson  12:57
We deal only with portfolios, so. But for us, that's five or more so too, and a lot of that is so we stay out of the kind of the realtor world and their regulations and stay in the commercial world. Right. So if you wanted to buy five homes, you know, you wanted to buy the last five homes and subdivision down the street, you know, we could help you with that. If you wanted to buy a whole community, we could definitely help you with that. We spend, I would say 80% of my job for the last couple of years, as fallen more on the education side. With builders, with developers with an investor's as well helping them understand what build for rent is, if you were a builder, you know, it's a different house than you would build for sale. It's optimally not as big, it's optimally not finished to the same level from a rental perspective. locations are a little different. So we help them the builders and developers work through that and just really understand from let's use Steve as the investor, what are you looking at, which is fundamentally different than what a for sale buyer is looking at? Right?

Steve Rozenberg  14:21
Selling? Okay, so this is interesting. So, first of all, I guess, do you own the lots already? Or do I come and say I want to buy something in Omaha and you put some parameters up and say based on investment property, school districts other maybe parameters, and I use all you know, and any city the USA and you say based on that this is where you should buy and we get you the lots are how does that work?

Mark Peterson  14:47
Though as a brokerage, we don't own the lots or the houses, we have relationships with builders and developers around the country. So if you came to us and said, You know, I really want To buy five houses 10 houses a whole community, whatever it is in Oklahoma City or Phoenix or Dallas or, you know, any of the major metros. Frankly, some of the not so major metros are where it gets really interesting from more an individual longer-term owner perspective, investor perspective. But we would try to basically, like any brokerage, assuming you're not a builder, and you don't want to build, you just want to buy houses, we would work with you and with the builder to find those, say, five houses, with the parameters you want any one of them is usually schools, you definitely have to get, you know, where rent and purchase price kind of match. So you're actually making money in the transaction. And now paint now more on your mortgage every month. So we can work with you as the investor to help understand that if you know you want to be in built for rent or rental homes, but you don't understand it, and then help find the deal for you.

Steve Rozenberg  16:06
Now, do you? Do they have to be an accredited investor? Or can it be any investor? That's never even done a deal before? And how much? Do you guys walk them through the matrix of what? You know, I guess you got to be very careful what’s a good deal to me could be not the same good deal to someone else? How do you go through that process with someone?

Mark Peterson  16:26
Yeah, we can definitely work with any investor, I would say if you were coming, you know, obviously is not Steve, since you have experienced. But if you have no experience in owning real estate, or buying real estate, I would say, you know, we could go through a pretty extensive kind of set of conversations to help narrow it down. And, you know, figure out what your parameters are. Because you're absolutely right, the perfect portfolio for you might not be the perfect portfolio. For me, it's, you know, we have clients, and let's flip to the SFR side of the house for a minute, who are, you know, really on let's call it the fix and read model. So they don't want to house that looks great, because their motive is really to make the house look great to their standards, and then operated and rented from there. whereas others are like, you know, I don't want any part of this building and renovating, I just want to buy a house that functions as a rental, and goes from there. And in that case, I think that's really where built for rent is a great opportunity. Because of the brand new house versus an existing house, you have no cap x or you shouldn't have any cap x for five or seven years. You know, it's a brand new house, a lot of the major, you know, systems, the roof, and all are under warranty. So you can really cap your outside exposure. And then a great part of what we do is frankly introducing them to people like you at Mynd of we are not property managers. We don't pretend to be property managers. But we know that that's to us back to the specialization, you guys are going to manage properties better than I'm going to manage properties as an investor. Let's set up some introductions to the specialist whether it's pm, insurance, you know what happened?

Steve Rozenberg  18:33
So yeah, exactly. You're focusing on what you do. And then synergistically, you're saying, look, you know, just like I would not be able to give someone advice on what neighborhood in Oklahoma City would be the best strategy for them. I could tell you how to manage that property better or who to hand that to. But again, that's where I think that's what people need to learn is that's where synergies come in. You know, that's like somebody's trying to be the whole team of a football team, you have a quarterback, you have a linebacker you got all these positions. And that's very much like investing, you don't see the quarterback throwing it to himself and then blocking himself and then kicking, you don't see that right? Everybody has a role. And that that's a great example. Now, what would you say are some of the major benefits if I'm an investor, and I'm looking at this or the SFR? side? I mean, I know you guys do both. So you don't want to kick the other side of the fence to you guys, but what what what is the benefit of going with the build for rent as opposed to the other way from your perspective.

Mark Peterson  19:32
From my perspective, some of the benefits of a built for rent versus an SFR. Some of it depends on the scale. Some of it goes back to what I kind of just talked about with a brand new house. optimally, you're working with the builder to design the house that makes the most sense for rental. And so that's probably you're probably scaling down to size a little bit. So that'll make it a little But less expensive, versus houses being built on spec to the retail market, the finish level is probably scaled back a little bit, you know, while solid surface counters are very important, you know, granite, something like that. It's not the fancy grades of granite with the fancy edges that run up the cost, it's not the if you're in Oklahoma, or Dallas or Houston, you know, maybe you're not wrapping three sides of the house with brick, maybe you're doing part of the front facade with brick. So it looks like it belongs there, but isn't as expensive necessarily as one built for the retail market. So those, those are some of them, if you go up kind of in the level of investment to whole communities, then you start to get into, you know, there's property management efficiencies, because if I own say, 50 houses, and they're in one tight little area, it's gonna be a whole lot more efficient for mine to manage those 50 houses than if they're scattered all over. Another benefit is kind of the permanent financing available. If you have the whole community. Now you can start working with kind of commercial level debt, and you can start playing with agency financing the same financing they put on multifamily projects for the last 40 years. And so I think, and I haven't looked in the last couple of weeks, you've seen quotes for permanent financing for apartments running at like 2.8%. Right? So you know that that that kind of interest rate is a pretty compelling reason to look at whole communities. But again, it's all based on scale, if you're only going to buy 50 houses, maybe not buying one location that's prone to a natural disaster.

Steve Rozenberg  22:03
Yeah, you know, what's interesting, though, is I remember when I was first purchasing a lot of rental properties, and I think I had about maybe 10 townhomes in a large townhome community. And one guy, one investor that I knew said I never buy unless I can own the whole thing. And I said, Why is that? He said because I can't control all the variables. I can't control the HOA, I cannot control what the charges are. So he said if I'm going to buy I buy the whole subdivision, the whole Hoa community and everything as one which, you know, economies of scale, as you said, I mean, that makes sense. Now, do you see people you know, an apartment, the big buzzword now is syndication, right? Everybody wants everyone's an expert, syndicator they want to syndicate? Is that something that can be done in single-family? Or do you see like who purchases 50, 60, 100 properties in a subdivision?

Mark Peterson  22:54
Sure, it could definitely be kind of the same basic syndication model. I think a lot of where especially build for rent is headed at the larger scale is to start replicating a lot of the kind of processes and systems that multifamily is already worked out. So you know, right now it's built for rent at an institutional scale is four years old, you know, two years old. This isn't something that has been, you know, had every kind of ownership structure thrown at it. There aren't known, you know, developers with their debt and equity, and then there are buyers with their debt and equity. So what we see so you have the traditional, let's call it SFR groups who really you know, the invitation homes the progress the try cons of the world, who sprung up during the Great Recession, a number of them are looking American homes for rent is looking really they're really into built for different ones getting involved. What we're seeing, though, is more and more of the multifamily investors, the big private equity groups, the big family offices, are looking at it as a hedge to multifamily. You know, they're not going to most of them aren't going to say, Alright, I have this 500 million billion-dollar portfolio of apartments, I'm going to sell them next month and drop that all into build for rent. It's going to be an incremental increase as part of the portfolio. And I think what, you know, the great, the Great Recession really proved out the thesis of rental homes and there's building, there were only a couple markets across the country where rent actually dipped down a couple of percents through the entire downturn on rental homes, unlike apartments and everything else that were completely decimated in areas. And that's proving true again, you know, through what's going on now, and whereas leases are being nice not been renewed in many areas for apartments, the interest per vacancy for single-family home is orders of magnitude higher than it was last year. Right? We were talking to a group earlier in the week. And last year, they are running 96% payments, you know, that was their baseline every month, they get 96. This year, it's 99. So, you know, so with everything that's happening with the world, and even according to most of the headlines, which obviously, you know, it's worse for some people than others. But the asset class has been improving at, again, to be super-resilient, and a great hedge to some of the other asset classes.

Steve Rozenberg  25:45
Well, and I think what you're seeing, and maybe this is a blip on the radar, I don't know, is that people in apartments are now everyone's home. And now everyone's You know, you're trying to work in the little corner of your desk, where you've got family and everybody. So now they're saying I need more space. And so now they're maybe they're going to houses because they don't want to be in there. Or maybe if they do have a house, maybe they're doing an Edu unit, or they're doing something to bust out the house, to put an office and to give themselves some of that area to work. Because a lot of businesses, as we know, are saying, I don't need this commercial space, I'll give you a little extra money and everybody works from home now. Are you seeing a shift in the build for rent, with the fact that more people are working from home? Like, are you doing anything different? Or advising saying, Yeah, we need to build up some more office space, or better, better internet lines or something like that, based on what we're seeing? Or do you guys see this as a short-term situation that eventually will write itself and things will go back to how it was?

Mark Peterson  26:51
I personally don't really see, I hope it's short term. But I think some of the behaviors that are going to happen that you just outlined, are going to be with us, you know, if not generationally at least for a decade or more, you know, because is there another one around the corner, you know, I don't want to go through this again and have to move again. So we're, we are definitely seeing it, we're definitely discussing it. The thing with build for rent, is if we're starting with raw land, let's even say it's untitled, but the house isn't there, you know, you have quite a lead up before you get to the house. So the planning process is slower and is lagging. Really, you know, it's hard to believe that in February, we would have been doing this in person, let alone, you know, it seems like years ago, but yeah.

Mark Peterson  27:53
So we're what we're allowed of what we're talking about is probably a greater preference for four-bedroom homes, then three-bedroom that I would say year over year, a little bit more. And it depends on the generation, maybe, you know, a separate dining room, instead of everything being in a great room and the kitchen, the dining room, the living room are combined. Because if there's let's say it's me, a wife and a kid or two who's in school on zoom half the day, you know, us having a conversation around the kitchen table, and it's gonna get kind of chaotic, really quick. Yeah, yeah. So you know, it's probably not so much designing an office as an office. But designing a bedroom that can be used as an office, maybe a little bit nicer. You know, traditionally, the amenities for single-family rental, whether it be fr and SFR, a really the garage and your backyard. And so that's doubly true. Now, the fast internet lines running through the community, I would say even if there was going to a for-sale market, vitally important right now. Sure. So that's not too much different. So so I do see some of these as the kind of concerns that have come up, let's say because of what's going on as being lasting at least for long enough time to design subdivisions around because none of them are being designed so funky because of this, that they won't be applicable at the other side. Did you guys ever tap into the short-term rental industry in this model?

Mark Peterson  29:41
It's interesting that to bring that up, we're having we've looked at it, it's obviously getting whacked pretty hard in parts of the country right now, that said, we're having more and more conversations with short term rental operators, who are basically you know, much less A lot of the other asset class investors, they're stacking up some of the significant capital to go acquire in what they determine our primary is right. And, you know, historically, we would throw in Orlando and Vegas, they're obviously getting hit hard right now. But there's, in my opinion, there's so much money literally invested both time energy, and just capital and debt in Vegas and Orlando, that they're going to be pushing hard to bring those back in a safe way. Sooner versus later. So

Steve Rozenberg  30:37
No, I totally agree. Totally agree. Now, do you have alike, from a numbers perspective? And I know this can be a tough, tough answer for you. What are the financial differences between going with this fixing, you know, fixing rent, or a build for rent? What kind of returns? Would you say somebody should expect that? Does it do economies of scale coming with that?

Mark Peterson  31:04
Yeah, it's economies of scale, I'd say definitely come in, I would say they really come in on the fix and rent site. Because you know, right now, in most parts of the country, at least, when we talk to builders, the smaller builders can't get subs to come and work their sites right now, the big boys or girls, or, you know, they can pay a little more, they can throw more work at them. So if I'm Mark, and I want to do, let's say, one fix and rent every six months, you know, if I don't have my own team, it might be a year before I get that done or six months instead of a month. Whereas if I'm constantly turning them over, and I can have at least say, a GC on staff, and he has, or she has good relationships with a couple of subs that we can keep basically employed on a regular ongoing basis, then I'd say my ability as an investor to make that model work is significantly better right now than if I want to do one every six or 12 months. From the build for rent side, you know, I think it makes a lot of sense, even at the moderately small scale, just to go if you can work with a builder to buy a house that, you know, that's tough right now if I wanted to buy it and live in it. So let's assume things somewhat equalize in the coming months. And that's easier again, I think, you know, just working with the different groups that you have to work with, you know, back to the specialization thing. If I have 5, 10, 15 houses, I can probably get a better deal on most things than if I have one house.

Steve Rozenberg  32:56
What was the one thing? Well, when I was thinking where I was wondering was, if I have a purchase property that will say use property that I'm going to fix up and then rent out you’re, I'm thinking in my mind, I'm going to have number one, I probably cannot get as much as a brand new house because it's like a new car to use the car, right? If all things are equal, of course. But more importantly, your maintenance costs are going to be obviously next to none on a build for rent, as opposed to something you build, you fix and rent. So maybe on the surface, your return on investment may not look as high and I don't know the number, but maybe it doesn't look as high with a build for rent. But, you know, you've got to factor in, I would imagine the lack of needed maintenance for a brand new house, as opposed to one that you've, you know, purchased fix, because they're still, you know like I explained to people, you can fix everything in a property, but it's only it's like a chain is only as good as its weakest link. So there is something in that link that's going to break because it's just been used, it's a human it's man-made, as opposed to something that all starts out brand new. I would imagine you have a longer lifespan, is that safe to say?

Mark Peterson  34:07
Yeah, I definitely agree with that, you know, if you know with the reality that in most parts of the country between say, middle oh seven and 2013 2014, there were almost comparatively no new houses built. So we ruled that whole timeframe out of available existing houses, so you're either going really new or you're going earlier than that. And with a 15, 20, 30 year old house, even if I went through and renovated it, I probably didn't rip it back to the studs and put all new systems into your point of you know, so it definitely and when we look at when portfolios are sent to us to evaluate from potential sellers, you always have to start to dig into their operational expenses. And it's amazing how especially for smaller operators, let's say they have 10 or 15 houses, they've acquired one a year, kind of thing in one general location. Many of them value their time at zero, you know, and they're self-managing, they haven't hired you to manage them. And I'm like, Alright, you, your time is worth something, you have another job, or you could go on a vacation or free time, you know, so we then have to throw that in. And because they're doing all right, the toilet leaks, they're fixing it, hot water flows out, they fix that. But they're not factoring in that time. So I think you're right, if, again, it gets into with the scale of, if I don't have, you know, if I'm not big enough to really hire you guys to manage it, or if for whatever reason, I don't want to which I think all investors should seriously consider outside management because your relationships with subs around the area, you know, it gets back to that you can keep them employed, you can get this fixed, probably in more real-time than I could if I own one house. Yeah.

Steve Rozenberg  36:18
Yeah. And just economies of scale, you know, to be able to, like you said, yeah if you're managing 1000, or 5000 properties, and you own one, and I call you as an AC guy in Fourth of July weekend when all their conditioning seemed to break. But you know, if I called you and said, Hey, I need you there now, where and you call them to say, hey, how much to come to fix my air conditioning? Which one are you going to go to? I mean, that's just, that's just business, you know, what you're going to see is the allegiance and if we treated you right, as a contractor and a vendor, you know, that's the other thing. Well, let me ask you, what are you seeing if you know, you pull out your crystal ball? What markets are cities that are kind of coming on the horizon? You'd said sub markets earlier, you'd mentioned that earlier, as far as you know, major markets and then submarkets. What's kind of piquing your guys’ interest right now saying, huh, I never thought of this area. But this is definitely coming up on the radar.

Mark Peterson  37:15
A lot of it gets into the if we assume the investor is a long term hold person. So they're not trying to acquire, stabilize and sell to a bigger fish kind of thing. We really like markets in the Midwest, you look at like a Des Moines, you look at a Northwest Arkansas, you know, a lot of people, at least that we talked to huge learning curve if they're not already there to get interested in Northwest Arkansas. But remember, kind of Walmart is sitting there with their massive infrastructure, they forced most of their suppliers to open a regional headquarters there, you know, there's really big money really stable, and the construction costs because the land is less are far less than if I'm talking about Phoenix, or Tampa or Jacksonville kind of thing. So if with a longer-term Horizon, we really like a lot of those kinds of markets. If you're looking in, you know, Florida, Jacksonville is really hot. So I would say as a small investment that's getting increasingly hard to compete in. But there are some interesting things going on, let's say around Leesburg around Winter Park, different areas like that, that, you know, if you don't need to be in an NFL city, for you know, if you're not one of the big equity groups, you probably don't need to be in an NFL city kind of location, you generally get better returns, they're generally extraordinarily stable, because one of the big costs and one or let's phrase it a different way, one of the big savings of rental homes versus say apartments are the average tenant is in a single-family rental for plus or minus five and a half years compared to an apartment at 14 months. So now you reduce that term cost so I'm not going in and painting and refreshing the carpet. I'm not paying a real estate agent or someone you know leasing Commission's and promoting and advertising to do that anywhere near as frequently. So when you start factoring that in, it kind of makes a lot of sense.

Steve Rozenberg  39:26
You know, it's funny, I always whenever I think of people asking where to buy, the thing that always comes to my mind is the Southwest Airlines model which, you know, they didn't go into the major airports, they went into the secondary airports and that's how they got their traction. And they didn't have to battle out you know, landing slots and all that and high costs of lax. They went into Burbank, Orange County, they went into all the surrounding ones Ontario, the same thing you know, it's just it's the same model sounds like going to go to the secondary city where you can still get some of the ancillary benefits of the major town in the draw. But you don't have to spend the cost and you're not battling it out with all the big boys out there, and you can still get the return. And I'm sure urban sprawl is something you look at as to where is this going, you know, if it's coming that way, and you can see clear indicators, maybe people put, you know, building pulling permits and builds and all that, you know, you can start seeing that the numbers and the data will definitely tell you a trend. So, Mark, let me ask you, like, how would I know or, for the people watching, who is a candidate to give you a call, like what kind of investor you say, look, if you're thinking of this, or that, or whatever your model is, give us a call, who is that person?

Mark Peterson  40:42
It really falls into, you know, again, anyone who's really looking into five or more houses, kind of in a, let's call it in an area, you know, one MSA, if it's one house in Atlanta, one in Bentonville, Arkansas, one in Tampa, and so on, it makes it a lot tougher, because we're probably not going to have a seller that we can stay with or five or more. So we can help them work that out sellers, you know, anyone who owns a portfolio that kind of right, I don't want to deal with waiting for the leases to expire, kicking the tenant out renovating the house, and then selling them on MLS, if you want to keep the tenants in, you could they can talk to us. And then from my perspective, I would say most of the people I talk to are really the builders and developers Not that I talk a lot with investors, it's usually I usually talk to larger investors, but we have, we can talk to smaller ones. But you know, if you're a builder or a developer, and you just you've probably been reading about build for rent, you know, for the last two years, you may or may not understand what it is, chances are really good, you don't understand how to implement it. And so so that's where we can really help out and, and start to work with them. You know, we can look at let's say we have a subdivision just for an example. And they're like, Alright, I want to do this one is built for rent, it doesn't quite meet my model for whatever reason for sale, but it's a great location, I'm getting a great deal on it. So we can work with them. We won't we're not the architects so we want to design the house, but we can help them with that process. We can help them look at different floor plan sizes. So is it a 1300 50 square foot three bed or a 14 or 16? Or an 1800 square foot three bed? Or what size four-bedroom house if we're in Oklahoma City or Atlanta, let's throw some five bedrooms, Dan, just you know, because they're Oklahoma City and Atlanta, and people like those there and help them kind of look at it from an investor's perspective. So, you know, and then try to mesh or what looks good from an investor's perspective and what still works for you mister missus builder, because, you know, at the end of the day, there are more fun ways to go broke than building out a subdivision. So, so let's get one that they make money, the investor makes money, everyone's happy. And then optimally, the same group does that again.

Steve Rozenberg  43:25
Well, Mark, thank you so much for all the information, I think it's a very interesting field that I agree, I think is definitely coming up. And it's definitely going to be something that you know, it's again, it's, it's evolving, obviously, like everything, and it seems like this is definitely evolving. If somebody wants to get a hold of you and talk more about to you or to the side of the SFR side, how do they find you guys?

Mark Peterson  43:50
We have kind of online presence, which is both our data company and our online transactional website is if they go there we have, that's where our listings are. But we also have ways for people to get in touch with us right from there. And if they put in the kind of what it is they're after, we can direct whether it goes to me or my counterpart, Bill who runs the SFR side of the house, or to someone else and kind of get them right to the right person. Nice and quick.

Steve Rozenberg  44:21
Very nice. Very nice. Well, Mark, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. I know you're busy. And you know, not like us having a hurricane coming our way here to Houston. But you've got your own heat challenges there and Phoenix. So I do thank you for your time and for everybody watching. If you want to know more about property management, and you want to have something that you can scale out, as Mark and I talked about just buying the property, it's not going to mean your success. You know, when you buy a property, you're basically buying essentially four walls and a roof. And you got to make sure that the business model running inside those four walls in the roof is what's going to help ensure your success. And that's where Mynd comes in. We're in 19 markets nationally, some of the best investment markets that you will find. So definitely having the team, just as Mark and I discussed, it's all about, it's not how hard you have to work. It's aligning yourself with the right people to get you to your ultimate goal. And that's what we do in mind. So if you will, like go to our website at And there we can talk with you whether you know what your strategy is, or you want to have that conversation. We can help you with that as well. So on behalf of myself, Mynd Property Management and Mark at SFR hub. Yeah, that's the end of the lesson. All right. Thank you so much for watching. I really appreciate it. And we will see you guys next week. Bye. Bye.

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Meet Mark Peterson

Mark Peterson is the Director of the Build-for-Rent (BFR) division at SVN | SFRhub Advisors in Phoenix, Arizona. In this capacity, he leads all activities associated with BFR activities at SVN | SFRhub Advisors. These activities include leading a team that has analyzed BFR portfolios around the country. Mark Peterson is also a member Investment Fund Manager and Fund Team for the BFR aggregation capital fund, SVN SFR Capital Fund I, L.P. The SVN Fund is in the process of identifying and securing approximately 4,000 – 6,000 homes to acquire and stabilize over the next three years.

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